WEBVTT 00:01.000 --> 00:07.000 Alright, we are at Gamelab 2023 in Barcelona and it's really nice to meet up with you once again, Peter. 00:07.000 --> 00:11.000 I think the first time we met was in Barcelona for Gamelab in 2010. 00:11.000 --> 00:14.000 So that's amazing, 13 years after. 00:14.000 --> 00:18.000 And we also met in Tenerife, so it's always nice to catch up with you. 00:18.000 --> 00:22.000 And your talk was just finished? 00:22.000 --> 00:24.000 Yes, I've just finished a talk. 00:24.000 --> 00:31.000 The presenter of the talk was my really good friend, C. Ian Livingstone. 00:31.000 --> 00:38.000 And he always got a few barbed questions to ask me, so I enjoyed that moment. 00:38.000 --> 00:40.000 Did he cheat? Same as he cheats when you play? 00:40.000 --> 00:50.000 No, he didn't cheat, although he did try a few tricky questions to try and catch me out. 00:51.000 --> 00:54.000 I don't think I have that type of questions myself. 00:54.000 --> 00:57.000 But what makes a game great? 00:57.000 --> 00:59.000 That was the name of the panel. 00:59.000 --> 01:03.000 Of course we can talk about many things, about game design. 01:03.000 --> 01:06.000 As you were saying, we could be talking for hours. 01:06.000 --> 01:12.000 But in general terms, which would you say are the main aspects that make a game great? 01:12.000 --> 01:20.000 I think the number one thing, if there was a formula, we'd write it down and we'd all apply to it. 01:20.000 --> 01:22.000 There is no formula for greatness. 01:22.000 --> 01:29.000 Whether it be a book, a television program or a film, there is no formula for greatness. 01:29.000 --> 01:34.000 But I can define what greatness means for me. 01:34.000 --> 01:40.000 It means that you've created something that people remember. 01:40.000 --> 01:47.000 Just think of that, creating something that stays with people who have played it for years and years. 01:47.000 --> 01:56.000 And that is all about, again I'm speaking personally, it's all about creating an experience. 01:56.000 --> 01:58.000 Games are experiences. 01:58.000 --> 02:06.000 An experience which either introduces the player to something they've never seen before, 02:06.000 --> 02:09.000 to a feature they've never seen before. 02:09.000 --> 02:19.000 And that feature is so beautifully polished and so wonderfully exploited within the game mechanic 02:19.000 --> 02:22.000 that it just brings joy to people's hearts. 02:22.000 --> 02:32.000 I'm thinking about simple things like in Minecraft, just how it feels to chip away at a block. 02:33.000 --> 02:39.000 It's a combination of the sound effect, the motivation, why you're clicking the block, 02:39.000 --> 02:42.000 why you want to look for those diamonds down deep. 02:42.000 --> 02:46.000 And that makes that mechanic great, which makes the game great. 02:46.000 --> 02:55.000 So I think it's this weird secret source which goes into the core of what a game mechanic is. 02:55.000 --> 03:01.000 And then wrapped around that core mechanic, there's a great narrative. 03:01.000 --> 03:06.000 There's a narrative that pulls you through, that makes you curious, that makes a player think, 03:06.000 --> 03:08.000 oh, what's going to happen next? 03:08.000 --> 03:15.000 And sometimes you get that in films, you get that in TV, you definitely need to have it in computer games. 03:15.000 --> 03:22.000 And then lastly, there is some mechanic which maybe does things which you find joyful, 03:22.000 --> 03:25.000 like being able to play together. 03:25.000 --> 03:32.000 A lot of great games that I've played are great because I'm able to play Street Fighter against a friend 03:32.000 --> 03:38.000 and beat him senseless, and that makes that experience great. 03:38.000 --> 03:43.000 And if I recall correctly, when we were in Tenerife, we were talking about Fable 03:43.000 --> 03:52.000 and how you felt like perhaps that defining aspect would be the freedom for the player. 03:52.000 --> 03:57.000 For players to feel free in what they choose, what they do. 03:57.000 --> 04:03.000 So in terms of adventure games and freedom, 04:03.000 --> 04:09.000 which examples have you seen that perhaps are really nailing that sort of sense? 04:09.000 --> 04:14.000 This year we have many great games releasing, for example, Zelda. 04:14.000 --> 04:19.000 How would you try and express that freedom in an open-world adventure game nowadays? 04:19.000 --> 04:26.000 I think we mentioned this in Tenerife, but freedom without direction can be very, very boring. 04:26.000 --> 04:35.000 If I just give you a forest and say, you can go anywhere, the first thing you're going to do is go, why? 04:35.000 --> 04:41.000 So freedom, or you always have to give the players direction. 04:41.000 --> 04:46.000 Now, in Zelda's case, which is Tears of a Kingdom, is a fabulous game. 04:46.000 --> 04:49.000 A fabulous game, and it's the perfect example of freedom. 04:49.000 --> 04:55.000 What they have enabled to do, and it's a fascinating mechanic, 04:55.000 --> 05:00.000 is they allow you to explore anywhere in the world from the first instance. 05:00.000 --> 05:05.000 But around every corner, there's always something fascinating. 05:05.000 --> 05:08.000 There's always some sparkly little thing. 05:08.000 --> 05:13.000 Just at the point where you're going, why am I doing this? I'm going to teleport back somewhere else. 05:13.000 --> 05:19.000 But I'll just have a look at that rock, because that rock is tilting that way, and all other rocks are tilting that way. 05:19.000 --> 05:27.000 So you've got to think, when you have ultimate freedom in the game, there's got to be direction. 05:27.000 --> 05:29.000 You've got to be still pulling players along. 05:29.000 --> 05:34.000 Whether they ignore that and go off and do something else is beside the point. 05:34.000 --> 05:40.000 There's got to be that pull that keeps people exploring. 05:40.000 --> 05:45.000 It also feels good to mine the rocks, as you said, with Minecraft. 05:45.000 --> 05:47.000 So that's the same with Zelda. 05:47.000 --> 05:53.000 Another thing on Fable, of course I have to ask you, the new entry to the series was just revealed. 05:53.000 --> 06:01.000 We couldn't see any gameplay, so we cannot talk about how much freedom the player is going to feel. 06:01.000 --> 06:04.000 But how did you feel about it? How did you feel about the tone? 06:04.000 --> 06:08.000 It's got this sort of British humour to it. So how do you feel about that? 06:09.000 --> 06:19.000 I mean, I thought the casting of Richard, I can't say his name, the Alawati, the giant Richard Alawati. 06:19.000 --> 06:23.000 If Richard sees this, I'm sorry, I forgot your name. 06:23.000 --> 06:26.000 I thought the casting of him was perfect. 06:26.000 --> 06:32.000 Making him obsessed about vegetables was very Fable. 06:32.000 --> 06:39.000 You know, the thing about Fable is you've got to remember, I can remember sitting when we were designing Fable originally 06:39.000 --> 06:46.000 and saying, I think we all agreed that Fable would be funny because of what the player does. 06:46.000 --> 06:49.000 It's not funny because it's got lots of jokes. 06:49.000 --> 06:58.000 It actually didn't have any jokes really, but it was funny because we allowed the player to react in ridiculous ways. 06:58.000 --> 07:03.000 And that ridiculousness still seemed to be there in the trailer. 07:03.000 --> 07:14.000 Like you, I would have loved to see more gameplay, but I really loved when the fireball was thrown from the heroine. 07:14.000 --> 07:21.000 I loved the feeling of impact it gave. I thought that showed real promise. 07:21.000 --> 07:24.000 So, you know, my hopes are high. 07:24.000 --> 07:29.000 We were looking forward to learning more, of course, but we only got like the tone of it, right? 07:29.000 --> 07:34.000 So what can you tell us about what you guys want to explore next at 22cans? 07:34.000 --> 07:37.000 What sort of systems are you trying to explore now? 07:37.000 --> 07:43.000 And we've talked about many different aspects, you know, got games and NFTs before. 07:43.000 --> 07:46.000 So what's sort of the thing now? 07:46.000 --> 07:56.000 So in days gone by, I would just start telling you about the whole game and the whole game design and why it was going to be the most brilliant game in the world. 07:56.000 --> 08:01.000 And people looking at this would then get very annoyed and angry. 08:01.000 --> 08:04.000 So I'm not going to I'm not going to do that. 08:04.000 --> 08:13.000 I do think, though, we have stumbled and it feels like stumbling on a mechanic that has never been seen in the game before. 08:13.000 --> 08:23.000 I feel like we are exploiting that mechanic in a world and an environment which may be familiar to people. 08:23.000 --> 08:30.000 And because it is in a familiar environment, it'll be a lot fresher. 08:30.000 --> 08:35.000 And a lot of this is very mystical because I'm trying to avoid to tell you what it's like. 08:35.000 --> 08:47.000 But there is it is it's going to be it's going to be it's going to be a lot more like a kind of fable black and white Dungeon Keeper kind of experience. 08:47.000 --> 08:58.000 So I think we're we're we've almost we may pretty much made the decision to make it a PC console title rather than it being a mobile. 08:58.000 --> 09:06.000 I'm not saying that we're not never going to do it on mobile, but we're definitely leading on PC and console, mainly because we need the power. 09:06.000 --> 09:15.000 Anything else you can share on the status of the project when we can expect to learn more about it or too early? 09:15.000 --> 09:27.000 Yeah. I mean, I'm so tempted just to tell you about or show you that the pitch video we've been to that behind. 09:28.000 --> 09:33.000 Off the record, that would be that would be the start of the slippery slope of telling everyone. 09:33.000 --> 09:46.000 The only thing I can say is that firstly, this game is the first game really that I've coded been a coder on since since black and white. 09:46.000 --> 09:48.000 So it makes it very special for me. 09:48.000 --> 09:58.000 And secondly, it has been evolving and we've been exploring ideas about it for almost five years now. 09:58.000 --> 10:02.000 So, you know, it's very, very close to my heart. 10:02.000 --> 10:04.000 That's really sounds really, really tempting. 10:04.000 --> 10:06.000 So looking forward to learning more about it. 10:06.000 --> 10:10.000 I won't try to anymore. 10:10.000 --> 10:14.000 Every part of me wants to tell you everything about it. 10:14.000 --> 10:16.000 But, you know, that would be silly. 10:16.000 --> 10:19.000 We'll meet in several months, I guess. 10:19.000 --> 10:27.000 Back to when we were talking like six months ago, you said that Europe had to be the home of games in terms of development. 10:27.000 --> 10:29.000 Now we are in Barcelona. 10:29.000 --> 10:31.000 Then we were in Tenerife. 10:31.000 --> 10:36.000 And here we are seeing many studios that are sort of structured around Europe in several countries. 10:36.000 --> 10:39.000 So how do you feel about that now? 10:39.000 --> 10:50.000 What have you seen in terms of of more talent being hired in Europe and more studios like growing up and showing what they do nowadays? 10:50.000 --> 10:57.000 Yeah, I mean, I still fervently believe that Europe should be the home of gaming. 10:57.000 --> 11:02.000 You know, America's got they've got they've got TV and film. 11:02.000 --> 11:05.000 You know, it's our it's our turn to have computer games. 11:05.000 --> 11:11.000 And, you know, we are especially the Europeans are a lot more. 11:11.000 --> 11:15.000 They are a lot more willing to take risks with games. 11:15.000 --> 11:21.000 And if we want new and fresh and original games, then risks is what you have to take. 11:21.000 --> 11:30.000 And I'm all for the continually amazing improvement that you see in games like Call of Duty. 11:30.000 --> 11:32.000 Definitely. We want to keep those. 11:32.000 --> 11:35.000 We want new and fresh and original ideas. 11:35.000 --> 11:37.000 And why shouldn't Europe be the home of that? 11:37.000 --> 11:39.000 We've got the talent. 11:39.000 --> 11:47.000 We just need to as an industry, we need to come together and not just wait for politicians to bring us together. 11:47.000 --> 11:59.000 So things like Game Lab are really important for us all to engage together and realize that we have an opportunity to make something significant. 11:59.000 --> 12:15.000 What is the role you think big companies such as Sony and Microsoft are playing into into this sort of distributed talent and indie studios with the acquisition spree that we've seen for two, three years now? 12:15.000 --> 12:22.000 It seems like the moment they show their head, they're going to be acquired or even bigger studios. 12:22.000 --> 12:28.000 And how this this whole strategy is transforming the industry. 12:28.000 --> 12:44.000 Yeah, I mean, if something becomes super successful, it's going to be, you know, the studio that made that super successful thing is going to get calls from bigger corporations. 12:44.000 --> 12:52.000 In fact, there was a company called ID Software and they did Doom, the original Doom. 12:52.000 --> 13:11.000 And if you phone them up, this is back in the day when we had when we had answer phones, you know, you'd be on the phone and it would say, press one to speak to development, press two to speak to the office manager, press three if you're looking to acquire the company. 13:11.000 --> 13:24.000 And if you press three, they just all shouted, fuck off. And, you know, as an as an independent, I think you've got to, you know, I've sold my company twice. 13:24.000 --> 13:37.000 You've got to think to yourself, well, you know, if I'm really fascinated in seeing where the thing I've created can go, then maybe being acquired by by a bigger corporation is the right thing for you to do. 13:37.000 --> 13:55.000 But I'm still fascinated in exploring new ideas. Then I think that's harder to do in big companies. So I would say that any successful company is going to be is going to be going to be looked at by by big corporations. 13:55.000 --> 14:24.000 If you've if you have got the luxury of not having to sell your company, then ask yourself what you want to be within this newly acquired company. And lastly, it's always a shame to me there was relatively few European European corporations that can stand up to the might of Japan, China and America when it comes to acquiring other companies. 14:25.000 --> 14:30.000 What about the mega acquisitions in terms of, for example, the Activision, the Bungie is the. 14:31.000 --> 14:44.000 Yeah, I'm going to be completely. I don't really quite understand the motivation behind that. It seems like a huge amount of effort they're going to. And, you know, as far as I'm concerned, I'm just asking myself one simple question. 14:44.000 --> 15:08.000 Is it going to make the games that are going to be coming out of Microsoft and Activision especially better? If the answer is yet definitively yes, then go for it. But if you know, I don't Microsoft and Activision haven't really been clear about what they're trying to achieve by doing this because it feels like an enormous amount of effort. 15:09.000 --> 15:29.000 But, yeah, I mean, you know, Disney bought Pixar and and, you know, I think Pixar still carried on. We all thought that Sky was going to fall in and Disney was going to ruin Pixar, but they're still creating charming movies. So mega, mega mergers can can work just as well. They can go equally bad as well. 15:30.000 --> 15:33.000 What happens if I dial 22 cans phone right now? 15:33.000 --> 15:40.000 There's no there's no answer. In fact, there is no we have no phone. We don't even have one. So, yeah. 15:41.000 --> 15:47.000 All right. I think that's, you know, thank you so much for your time, Peter. It's always a pleasure to speak with you and hopeful to see you again in a few months. Thank you. 15:48.000 --> 15:49.000 Definitely. Thank you.